Rush The Court

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• Secret love of Terp fans? They are possibly the worst fans in college basketball. They don't support their team when they are down and jump on the bandwagon when they come up with a big win. They also have a history of rioting on numerous occasions after wins (including a freaking WOMEN'S title) and hurling batteries and coins at opposing teams and fans (including, most famously, concussing Carlos Boozer's mother with a battery).

  Meanwhile, you continue to bash Duke. Did Williams travel on that play? Sure did. Guess what? There were probably 10 missed travelling calls in that game, evenly split. But objective analysis doesn't get page hits, just flaming Duke.

  Side note-where is all the "Duke love" that you suggest is floating around the site? Any time you mention Duke, you link to your poorly researched and illogical Duke swoon article.

• CP - they may very well be bandwagoners, but they're also typically funny as sh!t. And how is what Maryland does in College Park markedly different than the tradition known as "bench burning" in Durham?

  Not sure what is poorly researched and illogical about the Duke Swoon article. Please, enlighten.

• Bench Burning is a tradition after a win against UNC...not just an impromptu decision like UMd. fans burning cars after big wins in years past. Maryland fans are the worst of the ACC as well as the cruelest. Why would you put up a sign about having sex with JJ Redick's pre-teen sister? That's not creative, it's disgusting and stupid.

  • Agreed on anybody who goes after someone's pre-teen sister. Every fanbase has their idiots, though.

    Re: bench burning... only against Carolina, eh?

    The Cameron Crazies were once very creative and hilarious (we're talking the 80s here). Unfortunately, nowadays they seem like automatons who really don't know what to do or when to do it unless their cheer sheets tell them to.

• Ok, I'll admit that Operation Scheyerface 2.0 is pretty funny. But calling MD fans funny and creative, please.

  Funny as in making lewd sexual comments about JJ Redick's pre-teen sister or as in signs that simply say "F**k Redick" or simply screaming "F**k you" at the opposing team at the top of their lungs. Yeah, freakin' hilarious. As you say, every fan base has their idiots. Maryland just seems to have a whole bunch. Do you have any other examples of their funny?

  "Burning benches" in Durham basically consists of a giant bonfire of student-built benches. The "riots" in College Park have been actual riots with large amounts of property damage, vandalism and injuries requiring trips to the ER. Bench burning celebrates wins against UNC, Final-four clinching (the 1989 Regional Final that you cited above) or NCAA championships.

  While, in my admittedly biased opinion, I'll take the Cameron Crazies over MD or any other student section, I do have to agree about the cheer sheets and the trend toward over analysis. There were no cheer sheets while I was there (1999 grad) and I think the spontaneity was a big part of the fun. I think some MD fans gave some false info about Nik Caner-Medley (IIRC) breaking up with his girlfriend and the Duke students bit on it a few years back. There are still great ideas (leaving a pair of shiny red pumps with a note attached that read "You're not in Kansas anymore" on Roy Williams seat in his first trip to Cameron) but the cheer sheets seem to part of a groupthink that at times seems more important than the basketball game itself.

  • Tony - thanks for the respectful comment. I remember the Nik Caner-Medley incident, and that would be another example of one of the creative and funny things I have seen Md fans do over the years. I'm also thinking about some of the photoshops I've seen, but maybe I shouldn't be giving Maryland fans so much credit for that.

    I will also admit that the Terp fans tend to be foul-mouthed, aggressive and off-color at the actual games; but what do you expect from a bunch of state school quasi-Yankees?

    The cheer sheet thing at Duke really perturbs me, though. You mentioned groupthink - between that and the costumes where the CCs seem to want to be the show over of the players on the floor, it's been many a year since they were actually clever. And I question how much many of them even know about the game of basketball anymore. If I see one more time where people cheer after an obvious on-the-floor foul where the player continues on well after the whistle and makes the bucket, I'm going to lose it. And that goes for fans of any team, but I have noticed that several times this year at Duke games in CIS.

• No argument whatsoever on the Crazies. The Crazies of the last 10 yrs are the dorkiest, least socially adjusted part of the school. It's not what it used to be.

  Bench burning is a tradition at the school. While there has been an impromptu blaze at least once, it is generally well controlled, monitored by the fire marshall, etc. It is not analogous to what has gone in College Park-not even close.

  Here's the problem with the Duke Swoon-it assumes that other programs of equal stature have exceeded Duke's achievements. Some have, but many have not. For example, since 2004 (the date of each of UCONN's and Duke's last Final 4), Duke arguably has a better tournament resume than UCONN. Why are we not hearing about the UCONN swoon? 2d Round Exit in '05, Elite 8 choke to Mason in '06, no tournament in '07, 1st Rd Exit in '08. There are numerous other examples (e.g. Pitt).

  My problem is that the article sets out to make the argument that Duke nosedives more than others in March and then plucks statistics without looking at what other elite programs have done. It cherry picks statistics and does not look at the whole landscape.

  • CP - understood on your points about the CCs and the bench burning. We obviously have to admit that bench burning isn't the same as an actual riot.

    As for the Duke Swoon article, there is no such assumption, implicit or otherwise in that article. UConn hasn't had a swoon in those years b/c they weren't very good in those years - if you're not very good to begin with, then there is no "swoon" to be had. Your whole season was a swoon. UNC had a swoon from 2001-2004. Kentucky has had one for the last four years. Clemson was the other team that we noted has a tendency to make a hot start within a given season and then falter. Obviously, the Clemson Swoon, which we've documented MANY times on this site, is far, far worse than the Duke one.

    The point is that the article wasn't poorly researched nor illogical. It's quite logical. Duke, for whatever reasons in the past several years (some of which we speculated upon) doesn't play as well in Feb/Mar of the regular season as they do in Nov-Jan. That's a fact. It has no bearing or relationship with other programs such as Pitt or UConn or Kentucky or UCLA. The point of the article was not to survey the top 10 programs and analyze this; the point of the article was to point out a single trend (with possible reasons to explain it) for one of the pre-eminent (and therefore most publicized) programs in America.

• My point about being illogical is that it is not really a swoon if lots of other elite programs go through the same thing. Maybe it's simple variance? Bad match ups?

  Also, I think that you are wrong on saying those Duke teams were good. The '06 Devils were a terrible team. A generous 6 seed in the NCAA tourney. They fattened up on lousy opponents early on, but no one thought that was a really good team at any point.

  Also, you're wrong about UCONN. In '05, they were a 2 seed. In '06, a 1 seed. In '08, they were a 4 seed. Pretty good teams, no?

  It's only a swoon if they are drastically underperforming what other elite programs do.

  • CP - ok I see where you're going with this, but let me stress that it's contextual. The point of the article was to try to explain the "swoon" - it could be variance, but I doubt it. Bad matchups, definitely. I mentioned that they typically play both UNC games in Feb/Mar.

    Maybe the 06 Devils were terrible, but they looked like a lot of other top 10 Duke teams until February hit.

    I really don't think it matters what other programs do, but it's clear that you do. Would it be fair to say that Duke has swooned the last 5-7 yrs vs. earlier in the Coach K era? It seemed as if his teams got stronger as the year went on up until around 1995. You tell me if that's true.

• With regards to the link on bench burning after the Gtown game, I'm a senior here and I can confirm we do not burn the benches unless its vs UNC. The link you site refers to a bench-burning in 1989! when Duke UPSET Gtown. Better? Maybe not. But I'm not sure if we had the bench-burning tradition as worked out then as we do now, where its regulated and setup only after beating UNC at Cameron.

  There has (Sadly) only been one bonfire here during my tenure here at Duke, and that was in 07 after the Duke WOMEN beat UNC, capping an undefeated regular season (which would then be ended a week later to Kay Yow and then they'd get upset by Rutgers, but you get the point). That was a BONFIRE. The random dumbass georgetown bench burning is not.

  With regards to the fans....I' love to disagree on some points about the fans being knowledgable and somewhat. For example the two girls (Sophomores, it turned out) in front of me on line on Sunday were quite knowledgable, as are all my friends. But for some here at Duke, the BBall experience is part of the experience, and they go because its the "thing to do". Sad, but true. Even more so with tenting, in which some of the lower tents (those who white tent are particular culprits) there are students who tent to say they did it, and may not even have gone to any games at all before the UNC Game!

  Finally, with regards to Maryland, I'd disagree. UNC fans know how to try and work up for a game, and how to prepare. They're civilized and smart at it and intelligent. Maryland fans are vicious and hateful and spiteful. See the rioting above. They're just a bit....well, ugh. I fear for our team after every game at college park, since they need freaking SECURITY to get out of their alive. The same isn't the case at Chapel Hill, and that's not because of the closeness to campus.

  In all, yeah, some of the crazies have gotten lame. But as a whole, we're still a freaking awesome force of nature, that most places can't duplicate since their stadiums are built for selling tickets rather than for the fans. I was at the Wake game AT wake earlier this year, and their fans were quiet and lame. Nothing is like us. And this is in a down-stretch.

  • Thanks for the impassioned response, Josh. The way I see it is that you guys who are still on campus there at Duke should take ownership and responsibility for the CCs so that those students who are just there to be seen or whatever are not part of it. Give them a test on Duke basketball history (alternatively, the Jim Harrick Jr. test on basketball) or something to earn that seat down by the floor. Anybody can make a silly costume, but do any of those kids know who Mike Gminski or Vic Bubas are? Heck, do they even know who Danny Ferry or Alaa Abdelnaby are? Anything to make it better because it's almost gotten to the point where it's cliched and that's actually a bad thing for college basketball.

• (Pretty sure everyone knows who the G-Man is, considering he does acc coverage for Raycom (i think) and FSN and is frequently seen before games on the floor. Those who don't know almost always would ask, who's the really tall dude (He's 6'11").)

  As for the students....meh. I try. I'm a senior and am quite impassioned (Hell, I've gone to every football game at home the last 2 years and went to an away game at wake this year (in football and BBall).) I blame personally what is now the Junior class myself....my freshman year (05, Redick and Shelden's last year) we packed every game and everyone cared was incredible, but the year after (when the 2010 class came in) the frosh's attendence was really really poor (for us, mind you. For others probably not, I'm sure we were something like 90% or 95% or whatever). AFAIK it hasn't been as much the case the last two years, as I've not heard as much complaints on those classes and their awareness of Duke BBall. I suppose every now and then one bad "recruiting class" of fans will come to every school (:-P).

  As for tests and everything...meh, it's impossible to do. The only thing i could see is if the line monitors give a quiz on Duke Basketball to people trying to sign up for white (the shorter version of) tenting, but even then it'd be very possible that these fans would still sneak through. (As once a tent is signed up, a person can drop and another can join without any problems).

  Basically, the only ones who could pull such a stunt off are the Line Monitors, and there's something to be said about that whole group and their selection process (I'm NOT a line monitor, so my comments are not fully informed btw). Incidentally, w/regards to the cheer sheets you mentioned earlier, the line monitors have this year basically made themselves open with lines of communication for people to suggest things for cheers. For UNC the cheer sheets had some fun ones (My favorite was one for Hansblah, "You Flop! You Whine! You Travel Every Time!") but a lot of the times there's simply pure info on there and nothing about how to translate that into cheers (We did have for the Gtown game a great one about one of their players (Sims, i think?) having a stepfather with the last name "Awkward," which led to some fun chants. )

  Incidentally, you're talking to only a few fans here, which is interesting but could be better. I think a fun idea for a post would be to get a few guys from Duke Basketball Report, Inside Carolina, and other college Boards and have a talk about these things. I don't think these problems are particular to Duke (Despite bad fans getting in due to tenting, at least tenting is an effort to get into the game that requires work, rather than getting in due to a lottery...which is lame) and it'd be more interesting to see what others would say about these things.

  I don't know where you went to school or who you root for, for example.

  • Josh - thanks again for a well-thought out response. I'm wondering why couldn't the line monitors use some kind of vetting process to determine who the "real" fans are? Duke being Duke, I'm sure the really motivated kids would study up just like any other test; but would the others? I've heard stories about the line monitors being nazis about some of the rules, so it wouldn't seem like that big of a leap for me that they would enable some kind of process to ensure that the best fans are rewarded with the choice seats.

    One thing I do agree with you completely on is that the Cameron Crazies, as cliched as they've become, are still better than 95% of fans in college basketball. I think there are some fan groups that are a little more informed, but the fact that they're consistently loud and boisterous counts for a lot.

• rtmsf, given that the line monitors are a student-run group (I don't know who the school liason with them is for that matter), i doubt such an idea of vetting would be effective and fairly run....

  That said, the line process and the tenting process DOES give the best seats to those who are the most devoted. It's just that some who get in aren't the quality of fan one might hope for. Still, the best seats these people get are usually around the middle of the student section rather than the front, so that's not the problem.

• you all best look out for ncstate sid's got them boy's ballin now............